AUTHOR: M.
DATE: 11:21:00 AM
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BODY:
I am too exhausted by this homophobic, family-hatin' bullshit to say anything articulate, so I'll just say: what she said.
I'm not all up in their grill telling them that they shouldn't feel so entitled to their rights.
If we don't live our lives the way you think we should live them, why can't that be our problem?
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COMMENT-AUTHOR:
COMMENT-DATE:12:15 PM
COMMENT-BODY:In the richest country in the world, with the most conspicuous consumption EVER, its funny to direct comments about entitlement at the queers. Why not tackle poverty first? The bishops could be potificating about a lot of other issues...
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Bryan White
COMMENT-DATE:12:20 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Stop a moment and ask yourself whether or not you would oppose laws defining marriage as between two persons (in other words, barring state recognition of plural marriage).
It's possible that you don't see any harm in the plural marriage arrangement, but then again, maybe you do see some harm in it.
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: M.
COMMENT-DATE:12:49 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Bryan,
I don't know specifically how I feel about plural marriage, but I do believe that rights should not be tied to marriage, and that marriage should not be denied to consenting adults because others feel that they are not entitled to it.
As a person in a legally sanctioned same-sex marriage, I have to say that the legitimacy and protection the state of Massachusetts provides to my family is something I am grateful for and - yes - feel entitled to every single day.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Shirky
COMMENT-DATE:12:52 PM
COMMENT-BODY:I have an exaggerated sense of pissed-off-ness. Are the two related in any way?
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Bryan White
COMMENT-DATE:1:10 PM
COMMENT-BODY:m,
Thanks for replying.
I was trying to put you in the shoes of RCC officials, but if you're ambivalent toward plural marriage then you'd probably allow states with significant minorities of Mormon splinter groups to enter into their extended familial contracts without complaint, and we're left without a common foundation for discussion.
What rights do you think are tied to marriage, BTW? The government grants certain privileges to families based on (state recognition of) marriage--is that what you're counting as a "right"?
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: M.
COMMENT-DATE:1:49 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Bryan, there are more than 1,400 state and federal rights granted to married people that unmarried people are not entitled to.
If you want to call things like access to social security and the ability to make life-or-death medical decisions for your partner a privilege, I think that's also where we lose our common ground.
If you'd like more information about these rights you can look at http://www.glad.org/rights/Marriage_v_CU_chart.pdf, which I think is a great resource.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Bryan White
COMMENT-DATE:2:35 PM
COMMENT-BODY:m,
I'm getting a defensive vibe from you.
The site you referenced, as I somewhat suspected, files all manner of government allowances under the heading of "rights". What they are, really, are liberties that are bound by statute or privileges (as with Social Security) provided by the government.
Marriage is fundamentally a contractual arrangement, and one that society recognizes for the purpose of encouraging families (particularly fertile families). With the latter end in mind, the government arranges for benefits that accrue to the desired outcome--fertile families.
Is the government wrong to do this?
If so, why?
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Shirky
COMMENT-DATE:2:52 PM
COMMENT-BODY:What's yer point, Bryan? You don't want to call them rights? That bothers you? Fine, call them privileges, but why does The Man hand out these privileges to other people and I can't have them, even if I do all the same things as those other people? What, are they better than me? fuck that noise.
"fertility" is a pained and hoary argument, btw. It's so full of holes, I mean, I can sink it and I'm hardly the world's greatest rhetorical talent.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: M.
COMMENT-DATE:3:10 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Bryan,
If you have read my blog, you will know that I am a lesbian, not entitled to "privileges," as you call them, entitled to every consenting heterosexual adult in this country. You will also know that I am planning to adopt, and that I am currently fighting the state government where the child I hope to adopt will be born because they do not want to grant me, as a married lesbian, the "privilege" of adopting.
So yes, defensive. And I wonder if you have ever been questioned, insulted, ignored, threatened, or banned based on a fundamental part of you.
It is your right to disagree with me, but know that I am not interested in defending my right to the legal protection I - and everybody - deserve. I need my energy to fight the government on that front.
--------
COMMENT-AUTHOR: Bryan White
COMMENT-DATE:4:05 PM
COMMENT-BODY:shirky, m,
shirky,
My point is that the arguments I've seen that advocate homosexual marriage are flawed; moreover I am in favor of reasoned dialogue on the issues instead of rhetoric designed to appeal to emotion.
If you think you can sink the argument, then do it. Don't keep me in suspense.
m, you are entitled to the very privileges that you deny are available to you. Heterosexual unions (marriage) are available to the vast majority (not all; close relations may be barred from having marriages recognized). The heterosexual is barred from having same-sex marriage recognized, exactly as are you.
The question that begs to be asked is why the government has an interest in marriage in the first place.
Part of the word verification was "pez". :)
I have been discriminated against in some minor ways--I wouldn't presume that what I've experienced is comparable to what you've experienced; on the other hand, I like to think that my experiences offer me insight into yours that allow me to put myself into your shoes to a degree (provided they're 10 1/2-11, men's).
--------
COMMENT-AUTHOR: art-sweet
COMMENT-DATE:4:08 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Bryan, my darling little troll, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why we should let infertile, impotent, or post-menopausal people marry. After all, they're not going to be able to reproduce. Perhaps you ought to have to produce a viable semen specimen and sign a contract promising to forfeit all the benefits of marriage if you don't procreate within the first ten years of your marriage?
Simply put, the privileges granted to heterosexuals in marriage (regardless of fertility) result in financial benefits in the hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a lifetime. See http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/CTMarriageStudy.pdf for my facts.
Given that my sexuality is no more a personal choice than my skin color is, the federal laws that prevent me from marrying my partner and obtaining these very tangible benefits are prejudical treatment. No more, no less.
Finally, re: gay marriage = a slippery slope to polygamy. I think pflag says it best:
"The question of who can marry is a different question from how many can marry. We are asking the government to grant same-sex couples the same rights it grants opposite-sex couples. Since the government has chosen to involve itself in the relationship of two individuals, for it to choose which couples get marriage rights is discrimination."
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Bryan White
COMMENT-DATE:4:57 PM
COMMENT-BODY:art-sweet,
The blog host is welcome to ask me not to post, and I would oblige if so asked.
I have not been disrespectful, so far as I can tell. Why am I being called a "troll" apart from an effort to make me "other" and thus worthy of disdain?
Why should infertile couples be allowed to marry? Because checking heterosexual couples for fertility would be waste of time. The point that infertile couples are of less practical use to society (in that they fail to fulfil the aim of marriage incentives) is quite legitimate, however. I would support civil unions for such couples if you went on a crusade to prevent them from having marriages recognized by the state.
If dissenting views cannot be tolerated here, I will not overstay my welcome.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Shirky
COMMENT-DATE:5:05 PM
COMMENT-BODY:hey Bryan, (if that is your real name)
art-sweet already pointed out that marriage rights and privileges are granted to couples who are not fertile. Therefore, marriage rights and privileges are obviously not reserved for the fertile. If you say you've never heard that before, I say, pull the other one.
and dear lord, you can't be serious with this disingenuous "you can marry a dude if you want the rights" bullshit. If you can marry the person who you love, and who loves you more than anything, why can't I? We've already thrown out "fertility", and we can agree that "religion" is an equally bogus reason. What are we left with?
All arguments on your side eventually boil down to this: you want to enforce a one penis per marriage rule. I think that's stupid. Will we ever agree? Doubt it! I'm just not as fond of penises as you are, I guess. In spite of the fact that I find penises pretty foreign and a little icky, I would never prevent you from having--nor would I troll people's adoption blogs for openings to weakly disparage--your One-Penis Marriage. I think it's great if you find a nice rightwing troll lady and settle down. More love in the world, even if it's your freaky kind of love! It's insulting that The Man can't allow me the same dignity and loving commitment.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Shirky
COMMENT-DATE:5:12 PM
COMMENT-BODY:PS You will find that when you go to someone's personal non-political blog to pick a fight about something important to them, you get called a troll. If it repeats rightwing talking points like a duck, well--you know.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR:
COMMENT-DATE:8:41 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Bryan, It is a bit disingenuous to pout about "defensiveness" and intolerance toward dissent.
You chose, I assume knowingly, a personal blog on building a family – with two women heading it. To coolly pose inflammatory questions and pretend you didn’t expect a heated reaction is just silly. Of course the issue is personal, and if it isn’t for you, why are you choosing this forum to argue?
Everyone knows you don’t pick a fight with an expecting woman…
As for me, I've met the requirement for marriage as outlined by you. Fertile (enough), reproduced, and parenting. Sure, my partner is a woman, but I have the baby so I'm doing my part to raise the next generation of workers, taxpayers and voters...
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COMMENT-AUTHOR:
COMMENT-DATE:8:43 PM
COMMENT-BODY:(That's M's dad)
Several points, people:
1) Government has a legitimate concern with enforcing contractual obligations, and therefore - for everyone's protection - needs to be a party to marriage. But how does it have either an obligation or a right to define which adults can enter into that contract?
2) Where in the Constitution does it say the government has an interest in fertility? And if it does, why not give it the power to regulate bith control or non-marital sex, or to ban post-menopausal women from marrying?
3) Polygamy is a time-honored institution. If you don't believe me, read the Book of Genesis. As long as people fulfill their responsibilities to their partners and children, I dont see why government should dictate how many people can enter into a marital contract. Whether or not it's a good arrangement is up to the people who have to live with it. I haven't noticed that 2-person heterosexual marriage has been such an enormous success, either.
--------
COMMENT-AUTHOR:
COMMENT-DATE:8:43 PM
COMMENT-BODY:(That's M's dad)
Several points, people:
1) Government has a legitimate concern with enforcing contractual obligations, and therefore - for everyone's protection - needs to be a party to marriage. But how does it have either an obligation or a right to define which adults can enter into that contract?
2) Where in the Constitution does it say the government has an interest in fertility? And if it does, why not give it the power to regulate bith control or non-marital sex, or to ban post-menopausal women from marrying?
3) Polygamy is a time-honored institution. If you don't believe me, read the Book of Genesis. As long as people fulfill their responsibilities to their partners and children, I dont see why government should dictate how many people can enter into a marital contract. Whether or not it's a good arrangement is up to the people who have to live with it. I haven't noticed that 2-person heterosexual marriage has been such an enormous success, either.
--------
COMMENT-AUTHOR: art-sweet
COMMENT-DATE:9:22 PM
COMMENT-BODY:M., your dad RAWKS.
I'd like to introduce him to my dad, who sent me an email today with the succinct header:
"an awful decision"
In this saddening, maddening world, I think we're pretty lucky in our families of origin.
--------
COMMENT-AUTHOR: FemiKnitMafia
COMMENT-DATE:9:29 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Today has been a very emotional day. Difficult. Heart-breaking. Sore. Raw.
Bryan W. White -- please, I ask you to leave my M. alone. She doesn't need this shit right now. I believe I speak for all when I say that you're not welcome here tonight. You have indeed overstayed your welcome. Please leave.
M. -- with all that's happening, I'm VERY impressed that you engaged in this discussion at all. You're a brave girl, my dear friend. Hang in there. Tight hugs.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: LilySea
COMMENT-DATE:2:40 PM
COMMENT-BODY:"Dissenting views?" What a lovely euphemism for bigotry. As if the right of humans to be treated as humans was open for debate!
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COMMENT-AUTHOR: Diane S.
COMMENT-DATE:12:15 AM
COMMENT-BODY:I'll join you in saying "What she said." The creation of a second class citizenry is against every democratic principle I hold dear.
More than anything, I think the Christian Right (and I am a Christian) needs to wake up to the hate that constitutes their policies towards homosexuals. Sure they can quote all sorts of scriptures where the bible (including the new testament) condemns homosexuality. It also condemns greed, drunkness, and adultery. When I see the Christian Right go after the perpetrators of these sins, then - and only then - will I believe that their motivation is faith based and not homophobia clothed in righteousness.
I'm sorry to see you taking such flack for your position on this issue. Don't let the bastards get you down.
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COMMENT-AUTHOR:
COMMENT-DATE:10:47 AM
COMMENT-BODY:M., you rock, your dad rocks, all your supporters rock. People who attack you on your personal blog (yes, it's public, but you're not a political candidate for pete's sake, so let's be serious here) are apparently just fond of picking fights they can't win to upset strangers.
Don't let it get you down. Good luck!
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COMMENT-AUTHOR:
COMMENT-DATE:4:49 PM
COMMENT-BODY:Shirky, you are awesome. Your response to Bryan was some of the best stuff I've ever read.
M, I send you all my good wishes.
Karen/Naked ovary
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